Beauty

by

Since the beginning of philosophy people thought about beauty, what it is and by what it is caused. These questions were dealt with in mythology and literature as early as in Homeric Greece. Paris, the son of the king and queen of Troy, should choose the most beautiful of three goddesses Minerva, Hera and Aphrodite. This shows the three major characteristics of the beauty of those times: wisdom, domesticity and erotic. 
Would you see domesticity as a property of beauty?

Seit den Anfängen der Philosophie hat man sich damit beschäftigt, was Schönheit ist und was sie bedingt. Bereits im klassischen Griechenland wurde die Frage, was Schönheit ausmacht, in der Mythologie behandelt. Paris soll zwischen Minerva, Hera und Aphrodite wählen, wer die Schönste ist. Hiermit werden drei Eigenschaften der Schönheit aus damaliger Sicht angesprochen: die Klugheit, die Häuslichkeit und die erotische Verführung, wobei uns heute verwundert, die Häuslichkeit hier zu finden.

Beauty is not only subjective, not only in the eye of the beholder. Without a doubt the desiring eye produces beauty. Yet certain proportions are seen as beautiful in all cultures from the Greek classic until today – beyond any desire. 
There was always a discussion if generally valid properties of beauty exist or if beauty is a subjective experience of perception. Francis Bacon as well as most philosophers of Enlightenment like Immanuel Kant assumed beauty to be a property of nature. Already Heraclitus and Pythagoras noticed that the main characteristics making nature looking beautiful are its proportions. Whereas for the philosophers Arthur Schopenhauer and Søren Kierkegaard the experience of beauty is an individual feeling.

Schönheit ist keineswegs nur subjektiv. Zweifelsohne schafft jedoch das begehrende Auge das Schöne. Jedoch bestimmte Proportionen betrachten wir kulturübergreifend als schön von der griechischen Klassik bis heute – auch jenseits jedes Begehrens.
Es gab den Streit, ob allgemeine Eigenschaften der Schönheit existieren oder ob die Schönheit ein subjektives Wahrnehmungserlebnis ist. Francis Bacon und Aufklärer wie Immanuel Kant gingen wie viele der klassischen griechischen Philosophen davon aus, dass die Schönheit eine objektive Eigenschaft der Natur sei. Heraklit und Pythagoras sahen die Eigenschaft, die Natur schön erscheinen lässt, in ihren harmonischen Proportionen. Dagegen betrachteten Schopenhauer und Kierkegaard das Schönheitserlebnis eher als subjektiv.

Criteria for beauty are timeless for traditional aesthetics. Although what we judge as beautiful is influenced by media, fashion and advertisement, the zeitgeist and in which context we perceive an object. Beauty is shaped by what our epoch wants us to see as beautiful. Generally, beauty is order and form that means regularity which radiates security to the perceiver.

Die traditionelle Ästhetik sieht die Kriterien für Schönheit als zeitlos an. Allerdings ist das, was wir heute als schön betrachten von den Medien, von Mode und Werbung, dem Zeitgeist und in welcher Situation bzw. in welchem Zusammenhang wir etwas wahrnehmen, abhängig. Es ist geprägt davon, was unsere historische Epoche uns beibrachte, als schön zu betrachten.

Symmetry is seen as the classic property of beauty as well as the harmonic asymmetry of the Golden Ratio, which is the factor of the irrational number Phi 1,62 … that we find in the Fibonacci series, which plays an important role in Dan Brown’s “Da Vinci Code” (the Fibonacci series is a pattern of numbers that increases by adding two previous numbers). The Golden Ratio produces a kind of harmonious tension because pure symmetry gets soon boring. We don’t see something as beautiful that has the tendency of being boring.

Als klassische Eigenschaften von Schönheit bewertet man Symmetrie und die harmonische Asymmetrie, die dem goldenen Schnitt (Phi = 1,62 …) bzw. Fibonacci Reihe entspricht. Der goldene Schnitt bringt eine Spannung in die Symmetrie, denn Harmonie ohne Spannung wirkt langweilig. Was langweilig wirkt, empfinden wir nicht als schön.

You’ll find the Golden Ratio in the Golden Spiral and in the human body as Leonardo da Vinci shows in his Vitruvian Man who is standing in the circle and square. Looking at it, you recognize your own harmonic proportions. We use to see something as beautiful which is like us. This is the narcissistic tendency of every human perception. 
You see the Golden Ratio in nature f.e. in the sunflower, the spiral of the Nautilus shell and in architecture from the Cheops pyramid and the Parthenon temple to Cologne Cathedral. Raffael and Dürer used the Golden Ratio in their pictures and we find it in typography.

Der goldene Schnitt kommt, wie Leonardo da Vincis Vitruv-Skizze vom Menschen in Kreis und Quadrat zeigt, überall im menschlichen Körper vor. Man erkennt sich in dieser Harmonie. Schön empfinden wir das, was uns ähnlich ist. Man könnte das als narzisstische Tendenz unserer Wahrnehmung betrachten. 
Der Goldene Schnitt kommt in der Natur vor z.B. in der Sonnenblume und der Nautilus Muschel und in Bauwerken wie der Cheops Pyramide, dem Parthenon Tempel und dem Kölner Dom. Raffael und Dürer nutzen den goldenen Schnitt in ihren Bildaufbau und wir finden ihn in der Typografie.

Einstein said the aim of physics is to understand the symmetries of the universe. He, like a lot of physicist and mathematicians, believed the fundamental laws of nature are following the Golden Ratio as we can see f.e. in vortexes like in hurricanes and galaxies.

Einstein meinte, es ist die Aufgabe der Physik, die Symmetrieverhältnisse des Universums zu erfassen. Er, wie viele Physiker und Mathematiker, war der Auffassung, dass fundamentale Naturgesetze symmetrisch seien bzw. sich nach dem goldenen Schnitt wie die Grundspirale verhalten, wie die Wirbel der Hurricans und die Form von Galaxien.

Mammals perceive symmetries better than other proportions. Therefore it’s not surprising that humans see symmetries and proportions like the Golden Ratio instinctively as beautiful. These proportions provide a feeling of perfection. You recognise yourself as part of the cosmos.
Beauty is important for mammals for choosing a partner because beauty means health. Symmetry is a product of an even growth of the body and a sign of good genetic makeup. On the other hand, it is learned that we see certain proportions as harmonious and beautiful. We meet these proportions everywhere in art, logos and advertisement, in product design and architecture.

Säugetiere können Symmetrieverhältnisse besser wahrnehmen als andere Muster. So empfinden Menschen weltweit Symmetrieverhältnisse wie den goldenen Schnitt instinktiv als schön. Die symmetrischen Proportionen vermitteln ein Bild der Vollkommenheit, man erkennt sich im Kosmos.
Schönheit, also symmetrische Proportionen, prägt unsere Partnerwahl und die aller Säugetiere, denn Schönheit bedeutet Gesundheit. Die Symmetrie zeigt das gleichmäßige Wachstum aller Körperteile und somit eine gute genetische Ausstattung. Auf der anderen Seite ist es antrainiert, dass wir Symmetrieverhältnisse wie Achsensymmetrie und den goldenen Schnitt als harmonisch und schön ansehen. Wir treffen auf diese Verhältnisse überall außer in unserem Körper auch in der Kunst, in Logos und der Werbung, im Produktdesign und der Architektur.

Since Hegel, we differentiate between the beauty of art and the beauty of nature. The beauty of art should be improving and enhancing.
For showing the difference between the beauty of nature and the beauty of art let’s look at the sunset and the rainbow. This motif in art like painting and photography is a cliché that is shown too often and therefore transports nothing new, it’s postcard banality. As an aesthetical object, it is uninteresting. Since the era of Romanticism, we expect beauty to be interesting. Whereas experiencing a sunset or seeing a rainbow in nature it’s uplifting.

Man unterscheidet seit Hegel zwischen dem Kunstschönen und dem Naturschönen. Das Kunstschöne sollte nach Goethe bildend und erhöhend sein.
Wenn wir uns den Unterschied zwischen Natur- und Kunstschönen verdeutlichen wollen, bietet sich die Betrachtung des Sonnenuntergangs oder des Regenbogens an. Das Motiv der Sonnenuntergänge oder des Regenbogens in der Kunst wie Malerei und Fotografie ist ein Bildklischee, das viele Male benutzt wurde und deswegen nichts Neues vermittelt. Als ästhetisches Objekt ist es nicht mehr interessant. Seit der Romantik erwarten wir von der Schönheit, dass sie unser Interesse weckt. Dagegen ist in der Natur die Betrachtung von Regenbogen und Sonnenuntergängen erhebend.

What’s beautiful should be functional was the credo of the Victorians and it still is now. This goes back to Thomas de Aquino for whom beauty must fulfil an aim. In our consumer society, beauty is seen under the aspect of its use.

Für die Victorianische Gesellschaft bis teilweise noch heute gehört zum Schönen das Funktionale. Das geht auf Thomas von Aquin zurück, für den das Schöne einen Zweck erfüllen muss. In der Warengesellschaft bekommt die Schönheit einen Gebrauchswert. Schönheit wird heute durch gesellschaftliche Koordinaten bestimmt, die seine Erscheinungsform bestimmen.

Beautiful is what is desired – especially in our postmodern consumer society. This is the perversion of the romantic ideal of beauty which is based on longing.
Our postmodern ideal of beauty is partly influenced by the Japanese wabi-sabi, the beauty of the imperfect as a reaction to the manic perfectionism of product aesthetics. It’s the “imperfectly perfect” that praises artefacts showing marks of individuality in contrast to merchandise of mass production. 
In postmodern art, beauty is an outdated nostalgia, as it was and is overused in our society.

Schön ist das, was man begehrt – besonders in der Konsumgesellschaft. Dies ist die Perversion der romantischen Schönheit, für die die Sehnsucht prägend ist.
Das heutige Schönheitsideal wird zunehmend von dem japanischen wabi-sabi beeinflusst, das die Schönheit in der Unvollkommenheit sieht, was eine Reaktion auf die Perfektionsmanie der Produktenästhetik darstellt.

This was Siri’s 🙂 and 🙂 Selma’s end of term paper for their fairy school. We hope you find it interesting although we deleted their long chapter about magical fairy beauty.
Stay healthy and happy.

Das war Siris 🙂 und 🙂 Selmas Semesterarbeit für die Abschlussklasse ihrer Feenschule. Wir hoffen, sie hat Euch etwas zum Nachdenken vermittelt, obwohl wir ihr langes Kapitel über magische Feenschönheit herausstrichen.
Bleibt gesund und munter und Danke fürs Lesen

The Fab Four of Cley
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

To hear more about this topic you can listen in to this podcast that Klausbernd did with Rebecca on Tea, Toast and Trivia, inspired by Siri 🙂 and 🙂 Selma

Wer mehr zu diesem Thema hören möchte, den empfehlen wir diesen Podcast, den Klausbernd auf Anregung von Siri 🙂 und 🙂 Selma mit Rebecca auf Tea, Toast and Trivia machte.

© Text and illustrations, Hanne Siebers and Klausbernd Vollmar, Cley next the Sea, 2021

227 thoughts

    • Thank you very much, dear Marylou 🙏 🙏
      We are happy that you like Dina’s photography. It were us clever Bookfayries who choose those pictures together with our dear Dina.
      Wishing you a great week
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  3. Fab Four of Cley,
    So happy to see a new post from you all – and this is a collaboration from the four of you! You always make certain that we look at your topic with open eyes and open mind. I would have so wished my father could have met you. I know for a fact your conversations would have lasted into the night!
    Have a wonderful week!
    GP Cox

    Liked by 10 people

    Reply

    • Dear GP Cox,
      it’s a pity that this conversation isn’t possible. It would be great to talk to him. So we enjoy our kind of digital talks we don’t want to miss.
      We love our collaboration and this time Siri 🙂 and 🙂 Selma thought a lot about which of Dina’s pictures to use for this blog. They had to be especially beautiful 🙂
      Wishing you a wonderful week too and thank you for your kind comment.
      Take care, stay healthy and away from people
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 5 people

  4. Ah, beauty….this is an interesting post, and I shall reread, and also listen to Klausbernd’s podcast. Roger Scruton wrote a book on beauty which I am struggling with as it is so dense, and subjectivity doesn’t come into it, as far as I can seed!

    Liked by 10 people

    Reply

    • Dear Sue,
      thank you for commenting and mentioning Roger Scruton’s book we haven’t read. But now we will have a look. We wrote this text without looking what’s written about beauty, books and in the net. It’s always the problem if you read much before writing a post you get too much influenced by it. We know, there is a lot written about beauty because people were interested in what makes something and especially them beautiful.
      Wishing you all the best
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 6 people

    • I will tell you.
      But I am just reading a beautifully illustrated book about famous diaries and then I have to read “Skating to Antarctica” by Jenny Diski and “To the Edges of the Earth” by Edward J. Larson for reviewing and then it’s time for Roger Scruton.
      All the best
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 6 people

    • Thank you so much for mentioning Roger Scruton, Sue. I immediately looked it up. I read, he argues for the importance and transcendental nature of beauty. Louise Lockwood made a documentary based on Scruton’s “Why Beauty matters” and I have bookmarked it for tonight. (Also, I hope to find Waldemar Januszczak’s documentary on “Ugly Beauty”)
      I can perfectly well understand why you are struggling with the book:
      Michael Hogan wrote in The Daily Telegraph:
      …A counterpoint to Waldemar Januszczak’s Ugly Beauty treatise last week, which insisted that beauty exists in contemporary art if you know where to look, Scruton’s view is much more conservative. … En route, Scruton namechecks many of the same modern artists as Januszczak: Carl Andre’s bricks, the kitsch of Jeff Koons and the Young British Artist movement. His is a passionate argument, eloquently put, if perhaps a reactionary one.
      Left-wing leaning Tim Dowling of The Guardian commented:
      Scruton’s]precis of the history of theories about beauty, from Plato to Kant, only served to soften his case. There’s a reason people don’t think of the world as “intrinsically meaningful” any more: because it isn’t. … Scruton’s biggest problem was his failure to provide us with anything to replace the modern world with. To point us in the right direction for the future of architecture, he could only offer Poundbury, the Prince Charles-sponsored Anglo-Disney in Dorset. His visit with a traditionalist sculptor came across as two grumpy old men venting their contempt for all things new.
      Thanks again Sue, – we’ll drop the book, put the kettle on and watch the documentary. x

      Liked by 7 people

    • Thanks Dina, I am looking forward seeing this documentary tonight with you and Siri 🙂 and 🙂 Selma.
      Maybe beauty is a reactionary concept as it is close connected with harmony. But it is a lie in a world that is far from being harmonious.
      What do you think about this idea?

      Liked by 4 people

    • Dear Sue,
      I had a look, a quick read of Roger Scruton about art. I was shocked how populistic that is. Not only that it is so reactionary but it is stupid as well. Scruton seem to know no modern philosophy since Kant, no Structuralism, no Wittgenstein etc. I was amazed that such an uneducated person can spread his populistic ideas in an a book.
      His use of language – what he calls `beauty´, what he calls `real´ etc. – is similar to all populistic movements. And isn’t it an irony that he writes against subjectivism in postmodern art and is he is highly subjective.
      But R. Scruton is a fine document of a populistic approach to art.
      Well, you asked me about my idea of his writing. I just saw his BBC documentary “Why Beauty Matters” as well. That’s even worse when he in a narcissistic way talks about his reactionary ideas. The only one who talks sense in this film is Michael Craig-Martin.
      But thank you very much for telling us about him. One hardly finds all prejudices against modern art in such unreflected way. It’s great for quoting.
      All the best and thank you
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 5 people

    • Dear Sue
      well, he was obviously educated in a highly one-sided way or he slept during his lessons 😉 The people educated in Cambridge I know are much broader educated.
      Wishing you an easy weekend
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 5 people

    • Oh, I like Mr Januszcak…didn’t realise he was on last night, I saw a programme last week, I think. He is very knowledgeable,humorous and watchable Have a lovely weekend

      Liked by 1 person

  7. As always, an interesting subject, well-explored and beautifully illustrated. It seems Hanne has ventured out of her norm a bit with these images, which are wonderfully composed and edited,. It’s no wonder they were chosen by all of the fab four. A marvelous example of teamwork!

    Liked by 8 people

    Reply

    • Thank you so much, dear Tina 🙂 🙂
      Actually, one motivation of blogging is for us doing something creative together. We love it.
      We learn a lot designing these posts and, of course, we are very happy if our visitors like them.
      Wishing you an easy week. Stay healthy and happy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 5 people

  8. only humans can seek out and express beauty…you’ve done this again Fab Four of Cley❣️ it takes love and soul…lovely narrative and i enjoyed the thread…and yes Roger Scruton’s Why Beauty Matters is a 2009 documentary worth the watch. Have another beautiful and creative day 💫 smiles hedy

    Liked by 8 people

    Reply

    • Dear Hedy,
      we are very happy about your kind comment, thank you very much 🙏 🙏
      Tonight we’ll have a look at Roger Scrunton’s documentary. It’s funny after we have published a post about a certain subject we learn more and more about it. That’s the fun of blogging, isn’t it?
      Wishing you a beautiful day as well – actually, we have quite a beautiful sunny day.
      With love from the sea
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

    • Dear Hedy,
      thank you very much for telling us about that BBC documentary “Why Beauty Matters”. Well, I just wrote about it to Sue (two comments above). As I wrote, it’s highly populistic, reactionary and not only full of prejudices but also stupid. I would dare to talk about something I am so uninformed about. The only one who talks sense is Michael Craig-Martin in the programme. My sister is working in one of the world leading museums for modern art and she told me about visitors like Scruton there. But fortunately most people know more about art, art history and modern art.
      Thanks again, a great source to quote from as hardly anybody shows their ignorance that open.
      ✨⚡️💫⚡️✨
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  9. A really interesting post, Klausbernd, although its scope is really wide enough cover a book – a rather thick one – rather than a blog post. Have you read John Berger on art, although he tends mostly to evaluate aesthetics from a historical and political perspective? Interesting too for me, the notion of Japanese wabi-sabi that you mention. I’m thinking of the related art of kintsugi – repairing broken pottery with gold lacquer to render it more beautiful than it was in the first place. I wonder if this same concept could ever be applied to psychological healing? Envious of your sea views. All the best from locked down Norwich.

    Liked by 7 people

    Reply

    • Dear Laurence,
      you are absolutely right. Actually, I was interested in ugliness and was asked to do a podcast about this topic. But then I thought before ugliness comes beauty. My next podcast will be about ugliness. It was a kind of experiment and challenge for me to write something without studying books and the net before. I never did this before. As an author for non-fiction books the research was always essential but why don’t try something different.
      Very wise seeing this parallel between kintsugi and psychotherapy. You are right, that makes sense. I never made this connection.
      We have got John Berger’s book “Ways of Seeing” in our library, I even read it many years ago. I have to admit I can’t remember what he wrote, oh dear 😦
      You and Jackie keep well, healthy and happy.
      With warm greetings from the cold sea
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 6 people

  12. An excellent subject for this troubled world. To find beauty all one has to do is take the time to look. The philosophers have spent time eternally attempting to codify the aspects of beauty. Your discussion, Klausbernd, brings me back to the concept that works to enhance living. If we adopt the view that everything is beautiful in its own way our days will be filled with beauty. I so appreciate these discussions and Dina’s gorgeous photos so carefully chosen with the text in mind. Happy New Year to the Fab Four.

    Liked by 8 people

    Reply

    • Dear John,
      thank you very much for your kind commentary. Indeed, there is a lot of literature about beauty one can get lost in it. As you noticed, it was important for me to show that beauty can be seen in everything – if we are open for it.
      Well, it was a risky business writing about beauty as many clever people have already written about it. So I thought “sapere aude”, dare to think yourself. And that’s it.
      Alle the best to you for the new year. Stay healthy and happy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

  13. A lovely narrative and worth reading for the openings it offers to different ways of thinking, not only about beauty but about how we perceive everyday things. Incidentally, I wouldn’t bother with the Scruton book! Just my opinion.

    Liked by 8 people

    Reply

    • Dear Mari,
      thanks a lot for “warning” us of the Scruton book 😉 Great.
      Thanks for liking our ideas about beauty. We thought and talked a lot about it before writing this post. We knew it was a risky business to write about something there is so much written about. But Siri 🙂 and 🙂 Selma were really excited to write about it and so we did and here we are.
      Wishing you an easy week
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

  14. Quite a post with plenty of food for thought. Have you read Carl Safina’s “Becoming Wild”? There is a whole section on beauty that corresponds to what you wrote in this post. Excellent book. One of my favorites of the year.

    Liked by 7 people

    Reply

    • Dear Laurie,
      thank you very much for liking our post and mentioning Car Safina’s “Becoming Wild”. We surely will have a look at it. And especially Siri 🙂 and 🙂 Selma want to become even wilder – oh dear.
      We wish you a happy week. Stay safe
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

  15. I love all of these – and how come you came and visited Fountains Abbey without having your friendly neighbourhood blogger give you a guided tour? IU’m not a huge fan of highly edited photos, but that last one is both innovative and reflective. I love it.

    Liked by 8 people

    Reply

    • Dear Pete,
      we went with Dina quite often to the allotment near our house to photograph the sunflowers. Unfortunately, we have to admit we never got such a perfect sunflower in our garden although we try every year.
      Thanks for liking our post. It took us quite a while to get this post together. We are happy that it’s done now.
      Love from the sunny sea
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 5 people

  18. A very interesting and fun read. I love the photo of the colored houses so marvelously accentuated with the dark sky. I also like how you are exposed in the last photo and, like beauty, you can take that to mean which ever way you like. 🙂

    Liked by 6 people

    Reply

    • Dear David,
      great that you like our post and both text and photos.
      The houses are in John O’Grouts at the very end of the British island where the ferry to the Orkneys leaves. The last photo is taken in our library. It’s our dear Master.
      We had the feeling that such a text needs specially beautiful pictures. So we seem to have succeeded finding such pictures from Dina’s collection of her photos.
      Thanks and cheers. Take care and stay well
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

  20. Dina – your photography invites us to pause, to reflect and engage. And in so doing, we feel that ethereal connection with the many facets of beauty. The photo of Klausbernd from three angles is iconic. I love seeing the world through your lens. Klausbernd, thank you for your extraordinary generosity in sharing your knowledge and insights on beauty. You have ignited my thinking and have prompted a more deliberate reflection on how I view beauty in my life. What a wonderful way to begin 2021. Sending much love and many hugs to my dear friends, the Fab Four of Cley.

    Liked by 7 people

    Reply

    • Our dear friend Rebecca,
      thank you so much for your kind comment and for giving us the chance to do our podcasts about photography, colour and beauty with you at TeaToast & Trivia and all the others to come. We learn such a lot producing the podcasts and the accompanying post here. And not only this, it’s fun as well.
      A big THANK YOU.
      Wishing you a healthy and happy 2021. We hope that we will be able to meet again this year
      HUGs and LOVE
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 3 people

    • You’re so kind, Rebecca, thank you! After having spent some time now reflecting on kindness, I’ll never say the phrase “That’s too kind”, ever again. 😉
      Hugs! 🤗🤗🤗🤗

      Liked by 4 people

  21. Thank you for this wonderful essay about aesthetics. I enjoyed reading about perceptions of beauty in various epochs. I find symmetry more and more provocative to contemplate, since it seems it really does not exist–not in a tree or a rainbow or the human body or the cosmos–yet we seem to prize it. Since I think most things have worth in and of themselves, I’d (also) have to take issue with my prized Victorians (I studied them in school quite a bit) who required beauty to have utility. There were some Victorians who thought anything that should exist should have social value–say, in contributing to profit. And how they influenced modern notions of building and investing.

    I wonder when we’re post-post modern what we shall believe (and do) with regard to beauty. We might need magic–we might need that chapter about fairy magic.

    I hope all you are safe and well. Be healthy and happy.

    –Christopher

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

    • Dear Christopher,
      thank you VERY much for your differentiated commentary. Siri 🙂 and 🙂 Selma are sure that the postpost-modern art follows a certain fairy aesthetics but that is so fairylike that they can’t really explain, at least not now. But they know that fairy aesthetics will be sustainable and political. There they meet with our dear Dina and Master who are sure that the postpost-modern art will follow the endless possibilities of the digital world and will use it to raise consciousness for a sustainable and social lifestyle.
      We don’t know that much about the Victorians but we have the feeling with the Victorians modern capitalism started and a widespread alienation (in the Marxist sense).
      If one looks at anatomical charts (like G. Doczi who analysed animals, plants etc. > “The Power of Limits”, a beautiful book) one can always see symmetry. With the light refraction of the rainbow, it’s difficult to make a judgement about symmetry because the different colours merge which is typical of light refraction. There isn’t a clear boundary between the different colours as colours are a continuum.
      Anyway, we think that classical beauty isn’t seen as beauty any longer by more and more people because of what we judge in which way is dependent on what we have seen before.
      Thanks again for commenting and make us think.
      All the best. Stay healthy and happy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

  22. I was feeling sorry for Siri and Selma but they don’t seem to have taken any harm from the experience. 🙂 🙂 I love the fragility of that first image, and thanks to Margaret for identifying Fountains. I thought it looked familiar!

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

  23. The sense of humor that you end with is delightful! It can’t be easy to boil so much information down into a few paragraphs, especially when you’re not writing in your native tongue. Kudos for that, and thank you Dina for illustrating the points with such perfect images – the skull is particularly captivating – I can see the love there. The whole post does embody its subject well.

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

    • Dear Lynn,
      we can tell you our dear Master often has quite some problems to express exactly what he wants to. As none of us is a native speaker we don’t have anybody who could correct us. We use Grammarly as a correction programme but that doesn’t always work well. In former times we wrote in German first and then we translated but that has the disadvantages of using many Germanism. Now we partly write directly in English. Our German and English texts differ, especially in subtleties.
      Thank you for liking Dina’s photography. We think, when Dina’s photography is nearing still lifes she is best.
      Thank you so much for your kind comment.
      Wishing you health and happiness
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 3 people

  24. A well written and enjoyable post on beauty. Hanne’s image are stunning and creative as always. Thanks for providing much food for thought, Fab Four. Wishing you a year ahead full of inspiration, good health and much happiness. 🌟

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

    • Good afternoon, dear Jane,
      thanks a lot for liking our post and especially Dina’s photography.
      Well, we thought and talked for quite a while about beauty. We didn’t want to seek help from clever books or the net. It was Siri’s 🙂 and 🙂 Selma’s idea not to outsource our thinking.
      Wishing you a healthy, happy and productive 2021
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  25. Liebe Fab Fours,
    danke für Eure gemeinschaftlichen Betrachtungen des Schönen, philosophisch beschrieben und fotografisch gesehen.
    Dazu mag ich Schiller beitragen, aus den Briefen zur ästhetischen Erziehung des Menschen, hier vom zweiten Brief:
    “Aber sollte ich von der Freiheit, die mir von Ihnen verstattet wird, nicht vielleicht einen bessern Gebrauch machen können, als Ihre Aufmerksamkeit auf dem Schauplatz der schönen Kunst zu beschäftigen? Ist es nicht wenigstens außer der Zeit, sich nach einem Gesetzbuch für die ästhetische Welt umzusehen, da die Angelegenheiten der moralischen ein so viel näheres Interesse darbieten und der philosophische Untersuchungsgeist durch die Zeitumstände so nachdrücklich aufgefordert wird, sich mit dem vollkommensten aller Kunstwerke, mit dem Bau einer wahren politischen Freiheit zu beschäftigen?”
    Euch Vieren und der Lesegemeinde ein schönes und gutes neues Jahr
    mit herzlichen Grüßen aus Nürnberg
    Bernd

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

    • Lieber Bernd,
      habe ganz herzlichen Dank für das Zitieren `unseres revolutionären Schillers´. Wir können uns da anschließen. Auch wir meinen, dass Ästhetik einem politischen Ziel dienen sollte. Dieses l’art pour l’art kann man angesichts unserer Probleme heute nicht mehr aufrechterhalten, mehr noch, es wirkt reaktionäre. Ein Künstler muss heute auf seine Art politisch Stellung beziehen.
      Übrigens der uns am besten zusagene Satz aus Schillers Briefen zur ästhetischen Erziehung des Menschen ist: Der Mensch ist Mensch nur, wenn er spielt (oder so ähnlich. Ich habe leider den Text hier nicht vorliegen und zitiere aus dem Kopf). Bringen wir beides zusammen, dann wäre das die Aufforderung, spielerisch für die politische Freiheit zu wirken – und heute müsste man hinzusetzen und für einen nachhaltigen Lebensstil.
      Auch dir ein rundum schönes neues Jahr und Danke für deine regelmäßigen anregenden Kommentare
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 3 people

    • Lieber Klausbernd,
      danke für Deine feine Antwort. Wie Ihr und Du es immer schafft, so gehaltvoll zu schreiben, dies wunderbar zu bebildern und dann auch noch 100 Kommentare persönlich zu beantworten!
      Euer Schiller-Zitat lautet im 15. Brief:
      “… Denn, um es endlich auf einmal herauszusagen, der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des Worts Mensch ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt. Dieser Satz, der in diesem Augenblicke vielleicht paradox erscheint, wird eine große und tiefe Bedeutung erhalten, wenn wir erst dahin gekommen sein werden, ihn auf den doppelten Ernst der Pflicht und des Schicksals anzuwenden; er wird, ich verspreche es Ihnen, das ganze Gebäude der ästhetischen Kunst und der noch schwierigern Lebenskunst tragen. …”
      https://www.projekt-gutenberg.org/schiller/aesterz/aesterz3.html
      Wie Du beide Gedanken dialektisch hinwendest zu einem nachhaltigen Lebensstil –
      dies teile ich mit schönen Grüßen
      aus Nürnberg,
      Dein und Euer Bernd

      Liked by 2 people

    • Lieber Bernd,
      habe ganz, ganz herzlichen Dank für dein Lob, über das ich mich sehr gefreut habe 🙂 🙂 Die Posts zu schreiben und die Kommentare zu beantworten geht nur, weil ich mich vor 5 Jahren pensioniert habe. So habe ich genug Zeit und mein Beruf als Autor wurde auf diese Weise zum Hobby. Es ist schon erstaunlich, wie viel Zeit das Bloggen benötigt, aber es macht uns allen Spaß.
      Habe herzlichen Dank für den Schiller-Link. Ich bin eigentlich stets mehr ein `Goethe-Fan´als ein `Schiller-Fan´ gewesen. Aber mit zunehmendem Alter gefällt mir Schillers revolutionäre Art immer besser. Naja, unsere meisten Sprichwörter verdanken wir wohl ihm.
      Mit ganz lieben Grüßen vom grauen Meer
      Deine
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

  26. Undeniably beautiful artwork here from Hanne and as always an interesting narrative by the Master and his Bookfayries. Oddly I like the mushroom image best – simple, but beautifully composed and with the black background it turns from a heap of fungi into a masterpiece. Stunning.
    Jude xx

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

    • Thanks a lot for commenting, dear Jude, and for liking our post.
      We like it when Dina’s pictures resemble more still lifes. These fungi were growing in our garden around a tree stump. It was quite a fungi world. We love this picture and the skull best in this post here.
      With love from the cold sea
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
      xxxx

      Liked by 2 people

  27. Ah! The Fibonacci arcs. Long ago when I was studying futures trading of the agricultural futures I was fascinated to find out that traders have graphs going back years and years and they look for …yes….Fibonacci arcs. Those arcs when fitted onto a graph of say ,pork belly trading, on the Ag markets in Chicago fit the arcs of the prices. Now this is not 100% but it is close! So it you want to know where the price of a particular ag future is going look for the Fibonacci arcs. This and why we find the arcs in buildings so pleasing to look at is something I find fascinating. What do these arcs have in our past history that brings them to Futures trading and architectural designs?

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

    • Dear Anne,
      we had to think about your question for quite a while.
      Einstein and the mathematician Andrew Wiles f.e. follow and followed the idea that all basic concepts of our universe are following certain symmetries. That means that mathematics is following these concepts as well and one of the archetypal concepts of symmetry is the Fibonacci series of numbers. To predict market prices one needs probability calculation and statistics and in the end, they both follow the Fibonacci arc. Well, that’s my limited understanding. We need a mathematician for explaining it. We suppose that there are two archetypes determining our history, that are Hegel’s dialectics and Fibonacci’s series of numbers.
      Thank you very much for your interesting comment.
      Keep well, all the best
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

  28. Thank you both for sharing your knowledge and passion in this discussion about beauty – and kindness, Rebecca and Klausbernd. What a topic!
    Fascinating how much room kindness becomes in the comments, it speaks to the heart and is more important than ever. Mother Teresa demonstrated that genuine kindness is a gift of rare beauty, bless her.
    Since the pandemic, there’s the big sign along the road when you enter our little village; BE KIND. I like it, it works, it removes part of the ugly side.
    As for the beauty-is-good stereotype: physically attractive people are perceived and treated more positively than physically unattractive people. But haven’t we all met attractive people who went from hot to not the second they opened their mouths? Vice-versa, some people are so kind and awesome that you can’t help but be attracted to them, regardless of their looks? Which makes me wonder: beautiful is often perceived as good but isn’t good also beautiful? We are an extremely looks-obsessed culture, and research does show that the people we initially perceive as physically attractive tend to follow a very predictable pattern: they are average, symmetrical, and have hormone-dependent features. But don’t things like character and goodness also factor into our perceptions of physical attractiveness?
    In a world where you can be anything, it’s a great virtue to be kind.
    Sending you love and hugs
    from The Little Village next the Sea 🌊
    Dina-Hanne
    “Kindness is like snow- It beautifies everything it covers.” – Kahlil Gibran

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

    • Thank you so much, dear Dinas, for your clever comment. I have to correct myself. Above I wrote that words like `kind´ are often used in a meaninglass way – but that’s not always the case. I think that kindness is important and there is a connection of this kind of kindness and beauty. I can feel it rather than analyse it. Well, you could call kindness an inner beauty.
      If we speak about beauty this presupposes that our world is meaningful. Is it really? A lot of people wouldn’t share this idea. But maybe we have to turn to semiotics here, to Betrand Russell and Ludwig Wittgenstein – our world is defined by our language. And what means `beauty´ there? And if we look at modern language philosophy (Foucault f.e.) we have to analyse how the concept of beauty is one of power. For a long time only white people where seen as beautiful, an imperialistic idea. But it seems to me that kindness is beyond power, it’s the opposite.
      I love this quote by Kahil Gibran, thank you. Maybe we can only speak about beauty and kindness in a poetical or metaphorical way?
      Well, as longer I think about beauty as more levels I see of this idea.
      Wishing you a cosy evening
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

    • Dina-Hanne, your insights resonate with my experience. “Beautiful is often perceived as good but isn’t good also beautiful?” As I look back, what I remember is the kindness that was offered during times of uncertainty and transition. As few years ago, I spoke with a friend who had just recovered from a near death experience. He said that all he thought about at the time was the love that he had received during his lifetime and the love that he had given in turn. Klausbernd has opened my exploration into a new way of embracing beauty, of delving deeper into an internal conversation. The “BE KIND” sign is very much like the mantra of our B.C. Providing Health Officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry: “Be Kind, Be Calm and Be Safe”. Sending much love and many hugs back across the pond.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Dear Rebecca,
      in the end the question is how we define beauty. Is it aesthetical or a question of morals, is it a kind of substitute for good or what is it?
      Different people have different ideas of what beautiful means and how they use this word.
      I find it very beautiful that we had the first snow this year today. But unfortunately it’s all gone now.
      Love and hugs
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Dear Steve,
      thanks a lot for Hanne-Dina’s photograph.
      As I answered above to comments, I like Hanne-Dina’s pictures most if they are like still lives. The skull as a classical picture of the Baroque emblemata representing “memento mori” but you can read it as “carpe diem” as well.
      Keep well
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  31. Well written and thought our, Siri and Selma. Certainly more than I ever produced for a term paper. 🙂 And backed up by Dina’s superb photography. Hard to beat. BTW, the bones made me thing of Georgia O’ Keeffe, one of my all-time favorite artists. –Curt

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

    • Dear Curt,
      thanks a lot for liking Siri’s 🙂 and 🙂 Selma’s end of term paper. Well, they had some help from our dear Master.
      We read that Georgia O´Keeffe brought home some bones from nearly every trip. Especially Dina likes her art, these petals in those strong colours.
      Take care, keep well and thanks for commenting
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

    • When Georgia gathered up a barrel of bones in New Mexico and shipped it back to Alfred Stieglitz in New York (her art dealer, mentor and lover plus renowned photographer) he wondered whether she had gone off the deep end. When the rave reviews and money from her painting of skulls started coming in, Stieglitz told her to ship as many bones as she could find. 🙂 –Curt

      Liked by 3 people

    • Oh lieber Pit, jetzt bin ich dir eine Antwort schuldig; ich weiß es nicht mehr. Das Bild ist 3-4 Jahre alt und auch wenn ich heute ein Bild bearbeite, kann ich es nicht etwas später nicht genau beschreiben weil ich dies und das probiere. Ich benutze Lightroom und Photoshop und Nik Filters. Nik Filters sind in Prinzip Presets die man bearbeiten kann und sie sind richtig gut. Insbesondere ProContrast (dynamic) verwandelt ein Bild, let it pop. Ein HDR program benutze ich nicht.
      Tomorrow is the deadline für the next competition in our camera club and as always I’m late, can’t make up my mind and I try this and that … 🙂
      Liebe Grüße and euch beide
      Dina x

      Liked by 2 people

    • Thank you very much.
      We are very much interested what’s seen as beauty and what’s seen as ugly. We really got interested in this topic after having read Umberto Eco’s beautiful books about beauty and ugliness. It was not only the text inspiring us but more so the pictures.

      Liked by 2 people

  34. Wow! What an interesting post. I enjoyed the experience. Thank you. Your discussion around the vortex brought to mind a time when I went to see the Northern Symphonia and York University Choirs perform Verdi’s Requiem. The large hall there was amphitheater style and listening from the upper tiers you got full benefit of the ‘shape’ of the music. In one particular passage the string section created a sound vortex. A spiral of sound which could not only be heard but felt also. And even now when I close my eyes to remember it I can see the vortex too. True universal beauty!

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

    • Dear Yana,
      you made us think about the connection between beauty and understanding. Understanding gives security. This is a positive feeling we tend to connect with beauty. On the other hand, a modern understanding of beauty connects it with something that’s interesting. Well, interesting is often something we don’t understand a hundred per cent, at least not immediately.
      The problem with beauty is how we define beauty. In different groups and more so during different times beauty was defined differently.
      We don’t think you have to understand something to perceive it as beautiful. We don’t understand a sunflower and what is the reason for the pattern of the seeds is but we would call a sunflower beautiful.
      Thank you very much for your comment. We’ll go on thinking about beauty and understanding.
      Wishing you a wonderful week
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

    • Yes, all of this makes perfect sense. But then it makes me wonder why people have such different tastes. Evolutionarily speaking, we would be attracted to something that helps us survive as a species. A sunflower may be beautiful, because it provides nutrition. A sunrise may be beautiful, because it signals for us to get up and start foraging for food. A person may be beautiful, because they would help us procreate.

      Then why do people have such different tastes? For example, I am a much bigger fan of Renaissance art than say Picasso’s work. But somebody may be completely enamored by a few colorful splotches of paint on a white canvas… The same goes for choosing a partner – different people are attracted to different facial features.

      Many of us are raised and taught what to consider beautiful. We are taken to museums and told who are the famous artists and what is considered to be so great about their work. But does this dull our internal true reaction? The gut feeling of attraction or repulsion?

      A lot of rhetorical questions I guess. 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

    • Good morning, dear Yana,
      thank you very much for your interesting question. Actually, questions like these were asked by the Prague structuralists who were working on a reception theory, especially Mukarovsky. The answer they found, what you see as beautiful is dependent on the horizon of your expectations. And this horizon of expectations is dependent on what you have experienced/seen before. Mukarovsky didn’t think about beauty but about art in general, nevertheless, his theory explains why different people judge different artefacts as beautiful. F.e. my sister works in one of the world-leading museums for modern art. She introduced me to modern art, so I like modern and post-modern art (and we had at home modern pictures on our walls). On the other hand, I studied medieval art and like it as well. For me, it’s not either-or but both.
      Wishing you an easy day
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  37. Great choice of photographs to illustration the post. The arches are very much like those at Glasgow University I love the lighting capture in that photo. I adore sunflowers I’ve never really thought about what makes them beautiful before.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

    • Dear Charlotte,
      great that you like Dina’s photography. Thank you!
      The arches are of Fountains Abbey in North Yorkshire. The photo was taken on a sunny day and is edited to enhance this light.
      Keep healthy and happy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  40. Thank you so much, Siri and Selma – And all of Fab Four – for this very interesting (!) and beautiful post (!). Interesting that beauty has to be interesting in our time. Which of course means we can say this post fills the criteria to the fullest. Wonderful photo from Dina as usual, and so well matched to the content. Sheer joy reading and scrolling, pondering and acknowledging. Now I will return to Rebecka’s and listen to Klausbernd on the concept of Beauty.
    May you have a pleasant week ahead – here we have lots of snow and a wonderland for every winter lover.
    And – I sent a mail to Dina asking for advice – if she can find time I would be grateful.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

    • Dear Leya,
      first of all, Dina is just answering your email.
      Thank you VERY very much for your kind and clever comment. Great that you see our post as interesting. We always try to produce an interesting post but it was especially important for this post. One of the next posts will be about ugliness. Ugliness did, even more, interest us. It took us a lot of time to think about this post about beauty, how to present it. Writing and pictures had to complement each other.
      We are so envying you for your real winter. That would be a treat for us winter lovers. We had a little bit of snow for one day and now it’s quite mild again, up to 4 degrees. Unfortunately, all snow is gone.
      With love from us all. Stay well, take care
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you so much for helping out! And I am much looking forward to “Ugliness” too. Unfortunately our lovely winter is coming to an end – that is the way winter goes in southern Sweden…
      Love to you all
      Ann-Christine

      Liked by 2 people

    • Dear Ann-Christine,
      it’s really warm here at the coast of North Norfolk, 13 degrees, and very windy. More like spring than winter.
      Answering the comments here and on the podcast page gave us a lot of new ideas about ugliness as well. The art of Cindy Sherman is inspiring us too.
      Wishing you all the best
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Dear Fab Four,
      I enjoyed the podcast immensely, and I am very much looking forward to “Ugliness”. The notion of Beauty is overdone these days, but ugliness is, as you say, a bit more interesting. Being an aesthetic, I find some “ugly” images unbearable to even look at. But, I guess ugly is even more difficult to define, and to me it sounds there are more elements to this than to the definition of Beauty. In fact, I find few things to be the epitome of ugly. In my world I can find beauty in ugliness, but very little ugliness in beauty. Let’s see what will be the results of your deep thoughts about the twoconcepts!

      Liked by 2 people

    • Dear Ann-Christine,
      an interesting observation that you can find beauty in ugliness but hardly any ugliness in beauty. It seems to me the connection between ugliness and beauty is more radical. If beauty is ugly then it’s kitsch, the whole beauty is gone.
      In every-day-language beauty is a word that doesn’t say much. It rather shows that the speakers don’t take the efford to express themselves more specifically. It’s like `nice´.
      Thank you very much for commenting
      Klausbernd 🙂 and the rest of
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

    • Dear Josephinek,
      the imperfection is the new perfection, indeed. What we see as beauty is changing all the time and that makes it interesting.
      Thank you very much for commenting.
      Keep healthy and happy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  43. I learned my first of many surprising lessons about beauty 50 years ago when I traveled to the Soviet Union (now mostly Russia) with a college group. The larger females in the group were much more sought after than us skinny ones. I didn’t get it then but did as life moved on. Interesting, right?

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    • Dear Jacqui,
      as you mention Russia, in my twenties I was working in Finland and travelled regularly to former Russia in my holidays. I made friends there and they told me that I was seen there as gay. My body shape communicated homosexual for them as I am too slender.
      Thanks for commenting
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  47. Pingback: Beauty – EXPLORE AROUND THE WORLD

  49. Yes subjective! Some countries people pay for bum implants and others just think that’s bizarre as they only want to be almost anorexic.

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  50. Pingback: Beauty | THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON...

  51. Pingback: Beauty – Brooklyn Dynasty

  53. Great writing about beauty and a great text as a foundation for a discussion about the subject. Because, as you references show, there isn’t one “truth” about what beauty is. I think the postmodern era has shown exactly that. It was a breaking with all that was considered beautiful for instance in the romantic periode and with the impressionists. So I do believe how and what we conceive as beauty is learned and acquired over time. Van Gogh is the classical example. Today, hardly anyone would not consider his paintings beautiful, but back in his time they were criticized to pieces. The fact that mammals perceive symmetries better than other proportion, doesn’t mean symmetry is beautiful per say. Just that it’s been important for us and other animals to be able to recognize symmetry. But than again, maybe there is a clear connection between beauty and importance?… Since you asked the question: Personally, I sure don’t find domesticity beautiful. I would rather say that I have fight against it all my life. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Good morning, dear Otto,
      the problem with every abstract term is its definition (as Wittgenstein and Cassirer emphasize). Not only every age defined beauty in a different way but also different groups today. It’s important to be aware of what you understand as beauty. You can understand it as functional and biological to help propagation or you understand it as clarity like Bauhaus and de Stijl did f.e. Important is that the sender and receiver understand how the other side defines beauty. This definition is usually quite subconscious. Our post wants to make people aware of their understanding of beauty and how that is influenced by fashion, advertisement and the group you are living in. In the end, it’s a matter of ideology how we understand beauty.
      For us, it is strange to connect domesticity with beauty although we live quite domestic and now even more during the lockdown.
      Thanks for your interesting comment.
      Wishing you all the best. Stay healthy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

    • Thanks for elaborating on your thoughts on beauty. And I totally agree. It does come down to definition of the term, or find some way of agreeing upon the basis. Kant did try to find some inherent or absolute truths (I say so having read Kant but also admitting I probably didn’t understand what he said…). For me, and I think generally for Kant, too, there is no absolutes. Included what is beautiful. Which indeed means how we see beauty is influence by many factors, as you point to.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Dear Otto,
      Kant is indeed even for a German-speaking reader hard to understand. If I understand him right, beauty falls in the category of per see. He writes that we can’t really define such an ideal. That’s a little bit like Wittgenstein who ended his “Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus” with the famous sentence “whereof one can not speak, thereof one must be silent”. On the other hand, we all use the term `beauty´ and should speak about, speak about how we understand beauty. I suppose it’s important to see that beauty is in the end always an ideological term.
      Thanks and cheers
      Klausbernd 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

  54. What a great discussion. I have always assumed beauty can’t be normalized or quantified, that it was in the eye of the beholder. But, does anyone not know a gorgeous sunset when they see one, or an elegant horse? So maybe I’m wrong.

    There you go again, making me think.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Dear Jacqui,
      the beauty of nature and the beauty of artefacts are two cups of tea. Hegel was the first one seeing this in his “Aesthetics” at the beginning of the 19th c.
      We quite often think of judgements as beautiful that they are individual but they are mostly dependent on manipulative factors outside ourselves.
      Great that you like this discussion here – we do as well 🙂 And thank you very much for commenting.
      All the best and a happy week
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

  55. Meine Antwort auf die Frage nach Schönheit ist für mich eine ganz persönliche Sicht, ebenso wie die Frage nach Wahrheit. Ich sehe das nicht einmal als eine philosophische, also eine, für die Allgemeinheit zugängliche Ebene. Beide Begriffe stehen für mich für „Raum und Zeit“. Der Begriff Schönheit und Wahrheit existiert ausschließlich in der eigenen Gedankenwelt der Empathie. – Damit bedanke ich mich heute einmal für eure schönen Beiträge. Ernestus.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Lieber Ernestus,
      es kommt darauf an, wie man solche abstrakten Begriffe wie ‘Schönheit’, ‘Wahrheit’ etc. mit Inhalten füllt. Wichtig scheint uns, dass man sich selbst klar darüber ist, wie man sie definiert, damit sie nicht zu Leerformeln verkommen.
      Herzlichen Dank für deinen Kommentar
      All the best. Keep well
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

  57. For those who are interested in the idea of Beauty by the English Romantics:
    Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote the “Hymn to intellectual beauty” in 1816. This is a kind of romanticism looking at beauty that I can’t comprehend. You find that poem here
    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45123/hymn-to-intellectual-beauty
    This poem shows the leading philosophical conflicts of the early nineteenth century concerning beauty (and poetry). I became aware of this poem while reading “Stoner” by John Williams. You find an interesting interpretation there (in the Vintage-edition of 2003, p. 158-160)
    Shelley’s friend Keats was clearer expressing – what to my understanding – Shelley wanted to express
    ‘”Beauty is truth, truth Beauty’ – that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know”
    For me, that doesn’t say anything neither but only shorter.

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  58. The photography in this post is some of the best I’ve ever seen — anywhere. Love that sunflower — not just the detail but the clarity of the shot. Thanks, too, for the information on the Fibonacci series — I’ve definitely learned something today.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  59. Ich muss ja gestehen, dass mich es im Prinzip ziemlich nervt, welch großen Anteil die Umweltprägung auf mein Verständnis von Schönheit hat. Da ich um die Regeln weiß, suche ich doch auch immer mehr nach dem Bruch. 😉
    Ein sehr informativer Beitrag mit eindrücklich inspirierenden Bildern!
    Viele Grüße Simone

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Wir sind gerade dabei, unseren nächsten Artikel hier über die Hässlichkeit zu schreiben. Das ist weitaus schwiriger als über die Schönheit, über die seit der Antike viele Leute nachdachten. Besonders bei der Bebilderung wird’s schwer. Erschreckend wie ein Schönheitsideal von uns verinnerlicht ist und es in jedem Fotoklub und Fotobuch weitergegeben wird.
      Habe Dank für deinen Kommentar.
      Bleibe gesund und munter
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

    • Liebe Simone,
      wir arbeiten noch daran und zugleich gibt es wieder ein Podcast zu dem Thema, das aber die kanadische Produktionsfirma noch bearbeitet.
      Heute wurde das Foto einer seltenen schwarzen Kegelrobbe von Dina als “Wildlife Picture of the Week” von The Guardian veröffentlicht. Sie ist ganz aus dem Häuschen 🙂 und wir übrigen ebenso.
      Auch dir wünschen wir alles Gute
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

    • Liebe Simone,
      klar doch, das wird gemacht. Wir kommen ja gar nicht mehr aus dem Feiern heraus, denn vorige Woche waren gleich zweimal Hanne-Dinas Fotos im BBC Frühstücksfernsehen und davor haben alle großen nationalen Zeitungen wie The Times, The Independent etc. ihre Fotos abgedruckt. Wir sind mächtig stolz auf sie.
      Dir wünschen wir ein wunderschönes Wochenende
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

    • Einen Gelbaugenpinguin auf der Südinsel Neuseelands. Er kam aus dem Meer und lief zu seinem Gelege. Er ist endemisch, nur noch rund 7000 individuen und man geht davon aus dass er in 30 Jahren ausgestorben ist. Es war für mich eine unglaubliche Begegnung, hab hinterher Pippi in den Augen gehabt!

      Liked by 1 person

  63. Ein sehr schöner und vor allem interessanter Blog! Dazu noch zweisprachig und deshalb auch für mich nicht zu anstrengend zu lesen.
    Liebe Grüße von Hanne und auch danke für den Besuch bei mir im Blog 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    • Guten Morgen, liebe Hanne,
      schön, dass du bei uns vorbeigeschaut und kommentiert hast. Herzlichen Dank.
      Das zweisprachige Schreiben ist bisweilen mühselig, aber wir machen es auch gerne, da etwa die Hälfte unserer Besucher deutschsprachig und die andere Hälfte englischsprachig ist. Selten schreiben oder antworten wir auch norwegisch oder schwedisch.
      Wir besuchen deinen Blog gerne.
      Mit lieben Grüßen vom kleinen Dorf am großen Meer
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you very much for your comment.
      There are subjective as well as objective factors for beauty. On the objective side you find symmetry and the golden section as well as the logarithmic spiral as basic composition structures.
      Beauty is quite complex, indeed. You are absolutely right this post just wanted to make the readers think about it.
      All the best.
      Stay healthy and happy
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you 🙂 🙂
      We suppose, what you see as beautiful in design and art as in nature is based on the structure of our perception. You could see it as archetypes in the Jungian way.
      Have a happy week
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Like

    • Hallo Moteens,
      habt herzlichen Dank für den freundlichen Kommentar, über den wir uns sehr gefreut haben.
      Liebe Grüße von der wunderbar tief verschneiten Küsten Nord Norfolks
      Bleibt gesund und munter
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Erstmal freut es mich, dass ihr auf meinem Blog vorbeigeschaut habt! Dafür ein großes Dank! Und da es sich um ein erdachtes Pseudonym handelt, dessen Herkunft erst mit Blick auf meinen Blog nachvollziehbar ist, nehme ich Euch das wirklich nicht übel! Also wirklich kein Problem. Liebe Grüße und einen schönen Abend euch noch! Eure moteens

      Liked by 1 person

    • Dankeschön!
      Hier schneit es richtig stark, nachdem heute die Sonne schien unterbrochen von einigen Schneeschauern. Wir finden das gaaaanz toll.
      Wir werden es uns nun gemütlich machen. Masterchen kocht heute und Dina betrachtet und bearbeitet die Bilder, die sie heute machte, und Siri 🙂 und 🙂 Selma machen Unsinn. Wäre ja auch ganz langweilig, wenn hier nur Sinn gemacht würde.
      Liebe Grüße und auch dir einen wunderbaren Abend
      The Fab Four of Cley
      🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

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  76. Wer eine kluge Auseinandersetzung und Kritik des Schönheitsbegriffs lesen möchte, dem können wir die Graphic Novel der schwedischen Künstlerin Liv Strömquist “Im Spiegelsaal” empfehlen.
    Eine angenehme Adventszeit wünschen wir
    The Fab Four of Cley
    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Like

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